Curse

Tyla · Sep 23, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

If you've read the "Which Elite?" thread you'll understand where this thread spawned from. To prevent further derailment of that thread and create more of an understanding as to why Healer's Boon isn't really a good elite, I decided to make this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

im arguing its better than WoH in the same hybrid sense.

I honestly don't know how heavily I need to /facepalm at this. But I will explain.

Look at your common WoH / LoD hybrid bar, the optional slot specifically for either elite. (Keep in mind that Word of Healing is strictly better than LoD, and I am not arguing against that)

[word of healing][shield of absorption][protective spirit][dismiss condition][cure hex][patient spirit][glyph of lesser energy][aegis]

Put it this way, WoH and Patient will be powerful enough for single-target. If you want party-based healing, add Heaven's Delight or simply change WoH for LoD. Healer's Boon is definately not worth it if it's only fueling one or two skills in their power.

Taisayacho · Sep 23, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I KNOW I'll get eaten for this comment, but imo, if you need to pack the power party heals, HB + Heal Party seems like the better option.
/braces self for being eaten

Trylo · Sep 23, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

oh hi. i see you decided to make a whole new topic, however i guess i did not make my points clear enough or the shock of using HB as a hybrid is just too much.

anyways, the idea is not what you have posted. the common HB bar has absolutely nothing to do with this idea, and i recommend deleting it from your post to prevent further confusion.

the idea is that patient spirit can replace WoH as a powerheal on a hybrid bar, while also allowing the use of heal party and maximizing the efficiency of cure hex (as well as heal party).

a bar would look more like the WoH (to maintain your example);

[healer's boon][patient spirit][shield of absorption][protective spirit][dismiss condition][cure hex][glyph of lesser energy][heal party]

personally i do not run dismiss on any bars, and would switch that for guardian (apparently you like aegis better, but thats a different discussion).

the fact is on a healers boon bar you dont need dwaynas kiss to heal, and i rarely find myself using it, especially compared to patient spirit. one of the benefits not to be overlooked is the half cast hex removal, which is only rivaled by the 10e reverse hex.

now Patient spirit is your powerheal, not woh, and you can use it for a full heal whenever, and it fits more in line with the idea of protting & watching a target. HB makes heal party a viable option, and it also makes cure hex quite leet.

Tyla · Sep 23, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Alright then, I'll use your bar as a highlight.

You've got Healer's Boon, Patient Spirit and Heal Party. All of which take up three skills including an elite skill. Cure Hex is another story because the heal is more conditional.

Looking at this, you'll see that you can have Light of Deliverance (66 heal every 6 seconds, for 5 energy) and Heal Party buffed by HB (~100 every 2 seconds, for 15 energy). There is also Word of Healing which cleans up damage on a single target, but at the same times if someone's at 400 health (assuming 600 health total), they're probably going to go down to 299 at minimum with WoH's cast. You don't need the max heal at all, either. It's already a strong heal as it stands.

Now, if you did spend your elite on something else, such as WoH (using the bar I used in the OP), you'd have more prot. I can agree on you with removing the condition removal considering I usually take a Necro with Foul Feast.

Now, looking at my playstyle on a Monk, I wouldn't run GoLE. I'd run an extra prot because I usually don't need the energy management. If you spend more skill slots on protting, you also wouldn't need the heals if your prots are actually decently placed too. WoH is really the only heal you do need if you know how to properly place your prots.

illidan009 · Sep 23, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Ah looks like a made a good choice. WoH is a really big and fairly cheap heal, very useful...HB is decent but it overheals which makes it kinda lame. Plus it's really hard to cap

Taisayacho · Sep 23, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by illidan009

Ah looks like a made a good choice. WoH is a really big and fairly cheap heal, very useful...HB is decent but it overheals which makes it kinda lame. Plus it's really hard to cap

I just brought two mesmer heroes and micromanaged Backfire, ka-ching, done.

Sun Fired Blank · Sep 23, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Why are you even arguing over this? Stick a party heal in your midline and run WoH. End argument.

Trylo · Sep 23, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

whats funny is that were both using eachother's bars to make a foothold when really i dont run GoLE either.

on a WoH bar i would definitely not run GoLE, and generally dont run patient spirit either.

in regard to your OP bar, you would not have more prots because i do not bring a 2nd heal on the HB bar. if you take out GoLE (which i would do) you now have an extra slot for a prot. i assume this is what you meant. while this is a good idea for players who know how to monk efficiently, the extra prot is unnecessary (what more do you need other than guardian, SoA, and PS/SB?). generally i dont even run patient spirit on a WoH bar because i rarely use it since WoH has a 3 second recharge and heals for a little more than 150% of a normal patient spirit.

your comparison of LoD and Heal Party dont make sense to me. i thought we took LoD out of the picture, and it only shows the versatility HB has over WoH because it gives party heals as well as a big heal (which in your comparison takes 2 elites). also i assume you meant 300 health (i hope someone isnt taking 101 damage in 3/4 a sec D: )

the 2 main points that i consider more efficient in an HB hybrid compared to a WoH hybrid is the Heal Party, and the 1/2 casting of cure hex and to a lesser extent patient. otherwise they are arguably the same bar, except WoH Hybrid gets one more prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Why are you even arguing over this? Stick a party heal in your midline and run WoH. End argument.

because if one is more efficient i would enjoy playing the best bar possible.

Winterclaw · Sep 23, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Isn't red bars staying up better than red bars going back up? HB almost needs you do dedicate yourself to be a pure healer (maybe with one hex and condition removal skill). Now it would help with you rezzing others, but a monk shouldn't be wasting time to do that and in PUG situations Rebirth is usually better. Then you have to think about giving up an elite to make two skills heal a little better, and only one will work under a few conditions.

Anyways if you look at the numbers at 14 healing PaSp will do 114+50% or 174. WoH will do 122+94 to an ally that's under 50%. So instead of having a skill that'll give you 216 healing to someone that needs it, you are only getting 57 extra health.

Let me put it like this:
-Ally 1 is under 50% health. With WoH + PaSp, he'll be healed for 330 plus divine favor.
-Ally 2 is healed with HB + PaSp. He'll only get 174 plus divine favor.

Now if you were in PvP or playing a survivor, which ally would you want to be if you are getting pounded on and are at 25% health? I'd choose to be ally 1.

Trylo · Sep 23, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Isn't red bars staying up better than red bars going back up? HB almost needs you do dedicate yourself to be a pure healer (maybe with one hex and condition removal skill). Now it would help with you rezzing others, but a monk shouldn't be wasting time to do that and in PUG situations Rebirth is usually better. Then you have to think about giving up an elite to make two skills heal a little better, and only one will work under a few conditions.

pretty irrelevant, and misleading as the whole post has to do with HB being used without your whole bar dedicated to healing. if i want a res i take it on a hero, usually DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Anyways if you look at the numbers at 14 healing PaSp will do 114+50% or 174. WoH will do 122+94 to an ally that's under 50%. So instead of having a skill that'll give you 216 healing to someone that needs it, you are only getting 57 extra health.

this is true, and relevant. im only gaining 57 health... well im only losing 42 compared to a V50% WoH. i can also pre cast patient, and it has negligible cast time (especially with 40/20/20% making it a stance cast with one proc of the HCT). i also find it easy to pre cast patient since its almost prot like characteristics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Let me put it like this:
-Ally 1 is under 50% health. With WoH + PaSp, he'll be healed for 330 plus divine favor.
-Ally 2 is healed with HB + PaSp. He'll only get 174 plus divine favor.

Now if you were in PvP or playing a survivor, which ally would you want to be if you are getting pounded on and are at 25% health? I'd choose to be ally 1.

i would prefer an infuse from someone with HB.

otherwise i would have preferred to have an SoA on someone getting pummeled, and i could even pop out a Heal Party which is only 10e more than your combo and heals the party as well (this is a more conditional situation though).

snaek · Sep 23, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

[healer's boon] is garbage

heal #'s is not wuts important here

[word of healing] + [patient spirit]
gives u 2 heal skills to work wit...which is important in versatility

if u run [healer's boon]
u need at least [patient spirit] + one other heal (prolly [dwayna's kiss]) to be viable

and then of course u add on the bread and butter of [healer's boon], which is [heal party]....
and thats already 4 slots taken up

then u have ur gole...5
cure hex...6
and then either condition removal + prot, or 2 prots

1-2 prots doesnt really cut it for a hybrid bar

Trylo · Sep 24, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaek

u need at least [patient spirit] + one other heal (prolly [dwayna's kiss]) to be viable

why does 1 more heal add more versatility/viability than 1 more prot?

theonetheonlybruce · Sep 24, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

come up will at the number and justification of why 1 better then other but till u actually go out and run them u have no idea what u are talking about healers boon may not bee great but i sure does give word of healing a run

JoeKnowMo · Sep 24, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Snaek hit the nail on the head. You need 2 heals (PatSp + DKiss) to do a decent job of healing in an 8-man party. That means you either have to forgo condition removal or take only 1 prot.

The greater bar compression of WoH wins out the majority of the time. The only time HB gets the upper hand is in areas with heavy AoE/mass degen. But LoD might be a better option due to greater bar compression again.

If you take in to account that heroes can perform the roles of single-target and party healing (Sabway Resto Nec) just as well as humans, the whole point of a human monk is for the prots. And that's where WoH (and LoD) are superior to HB because they allow one to bring more prots.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

why does 1 more heal add more versatility/viability than 1 more prot?

Relying solely on one heal to take care of 8 bars is trouble. Not to mention that the heal in question (PatSp) has a delay. There have been plenty of times, when playing HB, where I have to use DKiss first because the ally's health is very low... or because PatSp is recharging.

If you've just used PatSp on an ally and another ally's health is suddenly low, I don't see how you can wait 5s (3s for PatSp to recharge + 2s for PatSp to take effect) to heal them.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 24, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

HB is far from being a bad elite. In fact, it's not bad at all - WoH is just a better choice most of the time. HB + Orders almost gives DKiss the power of WoH, but the rest of your skills will also be benefitting from it to so you'll actually be getting more healing power from HB in certain situations.

The only downside to it really is the fact that it makes you take up an extra skill. If your team has a 2nd monk or somepProt spammer with infinite energy (ER Ele or N/Mo), it could make up for what the HB lost.

Honestly, sometimes it seems like the skill only gets bashed so much just because it's what most bad PvE'ers and all those tank'n'spank teams use. I already know WoH is better in most situations, but I can't be convinced that WoH is better all the time, and I can't be conviced that it really is a "trash" elite.

Snow Bunny · Sep 24, 2008, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would say HB makes good backliner and WoH Hybrid makes a good midliner all this of coarse in pve and that you can run seed of life.

What the flying fck are you talking about? Stop posting.

Stick with WoH if you don't suck, stick with WoH if you do.

HB if you're a shit monk and want to stay as such.

Trylo · Sep 24, 2008, 01:11 AM // 01:11

im not sure this post really gets either side anywhere, but ill try to state some of my opinions on what you said;

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Snaek hit the nail on the head. You need 2 heals (PatSp + DKiss) to do a decent job of healing in an 8-man party. That means you either have to forgo condition removal or take only 1 prot.

not sure what bar youre looking at, but its not the one i posted/implied with 3 prots. me and tyla agreed that condition removal isnt an issue on monk bars with a nec (/rt healer) with foul feast. that would still be 2 prots if you brought 2 heals, but i do not feel that is enough prot even for a hybrid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

The greater bar compression of WoH wins out the majority of the time. The only time HB gets the upper hand is in areas with heavy AoE/mass degen. But LoD might be a better option due to greater bar compression again.

but HB can deal with both situations better than WoH or LoD alone. thats one of the main points in bringing HB and using Heal Party over WoH. but you also bring up the subject i mentioned before; is one more prot with a WoH better than a party heal, and faster casting patient + cure hex? (which i assume you say WoH is more efficient).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

If you take in to account that heroes can perform the roles of single-target and party healing (Sabway Resto Nec) just as well as humans, the whole point of a human monk is for the prots. And that's where WoH (and LoD) are superior to HB because they allow one to bring more prots.

if they can do party and single target why even bring WoH or LoD? it is a good point for the anti-HB argument, however its only pro-Prot... not so much pro-Hybrid. i do run full prots with an n/rt healer, with either SoD or RC or DH, and they can mop damage just fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Edit:

Relying solely on one heal to take care of 8 bars is trouble. Not to mention that the heal in question (PatSp) has a delay. There have been plenty of times, when playing HB, where I have to use DKiss first because the ally's health is very low... or because PatSp is recharging.

If you've just used PatSp on an ally and another ally's health is suddenly low, I don't see how you can wait 5s (3s for PatSp to recharge + 2s for PatSp to take effect) to heal them.

keeping with your theme of heroes/hench, i would assume i had another healer with me to help when that sort of trouble arises. so far playing with the HB/prot bar i have not encountered this situation, nor do i encounter it when playing WoH as the only heal.

in pvp i would infuse. but thats a different story where HB has been degraded to reflexes.

@ Snow Bunny:

elaborate please. i think people listen to some things you say judging from other topics, i would like more input.

(im not sure what age was really talking about either <_<... since when does pve have lines)

Anon-e-mouse · Sep 24, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

WoH's conditional heal is a bit to conditional for me. With the average toon having a normal hp of 480, that toon would have be be below 100 health for the heal AND the conditional heal to kick in.

Personally I like [Glimmer of Light] better than [Word of Healing]. For each time you could cast WoH, you can cast Glimmer 3 times. WoH (assuming 16 in Healing) COULD in theory give you a 244 (+df) point heal (under ideal conditions), Glimmer on the other hand, WILL give you 366 (+df) points of healing in the same time frame.

If you're going for a hybrid bar, I often use Glimmer, Patient, Cure Hex, and then for the prot side Mend Condition + other prots as applicable, and you may have room for some energy management skill(s).

snaek · Sep 24, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

trylo, ur problem is that ur lookin it from a purely number's game standpoint

from a playing standpoint, one with many variables to the enemy's offense
u'll find that woh is much more versatile
not only that it can handle a numerous amount of situations
its almost always ready

and availability and readiness is very important on a monk
for the fact that u only heal when it is needed

sure, healer's boon mite push out better numbers
but if ur not healing when and where it needs to be
then its a lost cause

not to mention sinced healer's boon is an enchantment
that requires you to upkeep it
it only adds to this burden

@ anon-e-mouse: u do realize that using woh on a target >50% is still a bigger heal than glimmer, rite?
thats wut rocks bout woh...
its still one hell of a heal, even if the condition isnt met

Rhamia Darigaz · Sep 24, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

ITT: people still arguing over topics that already have a clear answer in a 3 year old game.